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Talliostro

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Offener Brief an Battlefront
« am: 18. November 2008 - 08:20:59 »

Morgen zusammen,

gestern hat die deutsche FoW Community einen offenen Brief an Battlefront verfasst. Dieser spricht die gesetzlichen Probleme mit den ĂĽbertriebenen Masse an 3. Reich Symbole an, geht auf das unsensible Cover des neuen Art of War Buches ein und spricht die hohen Preise in Europa an.
Wer sich nicht am Brief beteiligen möchte, er ist sowohl in unserem Forum als auch im offiziellen Forum zu finden (General Discussion - Open Letter from the German FoW Community).
Hier dann auch der Brief, damit ihr nicht rumsuchen mĂĽsst:

Dear John-Paul,
Dear Battlefront Staff,

my name is Sven and I\'m writing you this open letter from the german community in my function as administrator for the website flamesofwar.de.
The german community website is now more than 3 years old, has over 500 Members and is still growing. The player base is mainly evenly spread over germany (few hotspots like Hannover, Cologne, Berlin and the Ruhrgebiet), we have regular tournaments and a regular player meeting every year. We support Flames of War and Battlefront, where we can and enjoy playing it here.
But a long debate in our forum has come to the conclusion that the german players want to express their concerns about the future of flames of war in Germany and Austria.
Our concerns are about 2 main discussion points:

a) way too much usage of symbols and phrases from the 3. Reich in the books and gaming aids
b) high prices in continental europe

For point a) , I have to explain a few things for players and people, who are not from germany and don\'t know the existing laws here.
German laws forbid the possession of certain symbols and insignia from the 3. Reich. Showing in public of this symbols is forbidden too and you can get a fine for doing so. The § you should look at is §86 + §86a StGB. There are exceptions in this law, mainly for historical education, arts and militaria, but this exception can\'t be used to exclude tabletop or modelling hobbies from this law.
So it is possible, that the police comes in the LGS (or some other public room where the game is played), sees certain open books (like Cobra or Afrika) or the DAK dices and gives the players and owner of the room fines. In very bad circumstances, you can be sued for selling and showing products with symbols of the 3. Reich in public. We had this situation already in germany and we fear, that when the game grows bigger here, that this situations will be a regular sighting.
Many sellers of FoW products, may they be onlineshops or LGS, are now censoring the books with black stickers or black paint, where they see problematic symbols. Few sellers even don\'t sell certain products because of this fines and possible sues.
So you see, we in Germany have real problems with the extensive use and showing of symbols from the 3. Reich in the last books. I provide you a link to a .pdf from the police in Hessen with some (not all!) forbidden symbols in germany:
http://www.polizei.hessen.de/internetzentral/binarywriterservlet?imgUid=04610b55-5440-48f3-362d-61611142c388&uBasVariant=ed83d448-9a76-4e11-8a5b-28e46ce02000
Looking at the new Art of War Book, we are even more concerned...

We could defend the game as a “tactical, historical Tabletop Game without political statements” but now, we can\'t anymore. We don\'t know why you used the phrases “Gestapo Announcement” and “Fascist Fashion” but for us, this is a real bad move of advertising a product. You choosed to advertise a book for a game with one of the brutal and human.despising organisations of the 3. Reich. The german community is more than horrified and wants to protest against this unbearable advertising!
The choosing of the Gestapo on the cover of a gamingbook is unsensibel and a heavy mockery of the victims of the 3. Reich. We lived with the SS Hype last year, seeing, that you just wanted to push the sales of certain products more and more on the US market. This was difficult enough for us in germany, because in the fluff texts in the books, this murders of the regime were the “Uber” warriors in the Wehrmacht, which is just a lie and not written from a neutral point of view.
But using the Gestapo as another selling argument for your products is more than unbearable and disgusting!
We don\'t know, which player type you want to attract with this aggressive advertisement and the using of unreflected phrases and “myths”, but we won\'t go this way any further without protesting. The gaming books in the past weren\'t written in this style and didn\'t show on every page swastikas or SS Markings, they were more neutral, emphasising, that Battlefront won\'t do a political statement . They were gaming books and gaming aids, nothing more.
So, what changed your mind towards this more aggressive and propagandistic way of advertising?
Are new players, even if they are from the wrong political spectrum, really worth this morale price?

Speaking of prices, I\'m coming now to point b) of the letter.
We know that for players it\'s always easy to complain about high prices for models and books. But in the Eurozone we have the highest prices in the world.
Today, we pay 20% more than a UK player and 10% more than a US player for the same product. It is really cheaper to buy your products in the UK or US and paying the shipping costs than going to our local seller and buying there. Many UK Onlineshops now don\'t even take any shipping costs any more, when you buy for a certain amount.
So the high prices here in continental Europe make supporting the LGS really a tough decision. And the LGS are selling today less and less FoW products than a year ago. We want to support our LGS, buying in an onlineshop is not the same as buying (and having a chat) in the LGS, but the prices dictate more and more, where to buy.
And, as a matter of fact, new players think twice about starting with FoW, when they have to pay 9,50€ for a small resin tank. We all know about production costs and business plans, but why do we have to pay this high prices, when worldwide the prices are more moderate in comparison?

So, these are the two big points, which bother the german community. We are hoping to get a serious answer from you and wish you a good week.

The German Flames of War Players
Gespeichert
Administrator www.flamesofwar.de

Decebalus

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« Antwort #1 am: 18. November 2008 - 08:35:03 »

Punkt a) klingt absolut ĂĽberzeugend und berechtigt.

Punkt b) kann ich nicht ganz nachvollziehen, da ich nicht erkenne, dass Battlefront in Deutschland teurer ist als irgend ein anderer 15mm Hersteller.
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Talliostro

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« Antwort #2 am: 18. November 2008 - 08:51:53 »

Im Vergleich mit anderen Herstellern stimmt das auch, aber wenn ich für dasselbe Produkt (in dem Falle ein Resin Panzer für 9,50€) in Deutschland 20% mehr bezahle als in Uk stimmt was nicht. Da ist dann irgendwo ne Schieflage inder Kalkulation, die den örtlichen Händlern das Leben schwer machen kann.
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Driscoles

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Offener Brief an Battlefront
« Antwort #3 am: 18. November 2008 - 09:09:45 »

Hallo,

ich finde den Brief gut und mutig. Respekt.

Ăśber die FOW Preise rege ich mich nicht auf. Ich kann ohne Probleme gĂĽnstigere und oftmals bessere Modelle von anderen Herstellern beziehen. Insbesondere wenn sie einen Sale machen. Wie zum beispiel CD vor kurzem wieder mal.

Das da tatsächlich so ein preislicher Unterschied zu den verschiedenen Ländern besteht war mir nicht klar. Auf die Erklärung bin ich auch mal gespannt.

Danke und GrĂĽĂźe
Björn
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Diomedes

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« Antwort #4 am: 18. November 2008 - 09:12:46 »

Wäre nett wenn du hier auch Neuigkeiten und das Ergenbiss postest wenn ihr was von Battlefront hört.
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Talliostro

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« Antwort #5 am: 18. November 2008 - 21:10:41 »

bisher gibts noch nix neues.
ausser dass der Thread mittlerweile No.1 an Views im offiziellen Forum hat und auf 18 Seiten angeschwollen ist.
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Angrist

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Offener Brief an Battlefront
« Antwort #6 am: 18. November 2008 - 22:53:04 »

@talliostro

könntest du vielleicht ein paar links posten wo man sieht was euch so aufregt, (oder links zu seiten die links bzw bilder haben? )
ich glaubs euch zwar was in dem brief steht, aber erscheint mir fast unglaublich das eine firma sowas in deutschland machen will

ich hatte eben gerade mal mit google bildersuche nach flames of war art of war (das ist doch das neue störrende werk das im brief angesprochen wird) gesucht und auf dem cover bis auf die reisserischen überschriften nicht soviel gefunden

aber vielleicht wars das falsche cover

hab mich nie mit fow beschäfftigt und will nur deswegen mich da jetzt nicht reingraben in details
Gespeichert
Registriert euch bei http://www.spielerzentrale.de und sorgt dafür, das jeder Suchende einen historischen TTler in seiner Nähe findet.

AbrĂĽstung mit Frieden zu verwechseln, ist ein schwerer Fehler.
Winston Churchchill

Mehrunes

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« Antwort #7 am: 18. November 2008 - 22:56:27 »

Wie im Brief beschrieben wird sich auf DIESEM Cover auch nur ĂĽber die beiden Ăśberschriften mokiert.
Die Symbole finden sich INNERHALB anderer BĂĽcher.

Die Preise kann man in jedem Onlineshop nachsehen wobei ich nicht sehe dass FoW soviel teurer ist als Peter Pig zum Beispiel.

Angrist

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« Antwort #8 am: 18. November 2008 - 23:19:37 »

\"@mehrunes
ich hatte \"The choosing of the Gestapo on the cover of a gamingbook \" eben so gelesen das die doch irgendwo auf dem cover drauf sein mĂĽssten nicht nur als text, ein wort

Mein Fehler

die Abkürzung LGS die bei FOW dauernd benutztwird, steht doch für den örtlichen minihändler oder?
Gespeichert
Registriert euch bei http://www.spielerzentrale.de und sorgt dafür, das jeder Suchende einen historischen TTler in seiner Nähe findet.

AbrĂĽstung mit Frieden zu verwechseln, ist ein schwerer Fehler.
Winston Churchchill

Mehrunes

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« Antwort #9 am: 18. November 2008 - 23:28:07 »

Jup, war mir allerdings neu.

Axebreaker

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« Antwort #10 am: 19. November 2008 - 02:31:55 »

As an American,I can help answer some of his questions.

He said it in the first line \"not from Germany\".In America the use of 3rd Reich symbols(in books and games) is not nearly as loaded as it is here.In America if I had a model tank with a red swastika flag streched over the back grill nobody would care as it\'s just a historical model.Of course if you go around wearing these symbols,then that\'s a whole different thing altogether.

To many of them,when you model ss formations, troops and HQ buildings,etc. and you do not include these symbols then your just doing it inaccurate.It\'s like playing the Confederates in ACW and leaving out the rebel flag.

In many cases the hype around ss formations as elite formations of the German army is true.They were the best equipped and very determined.Units did not relish the idea of having to fight these formations.They knew these were generally fanatical fighters(never fun)and would be difficult to overcome.This statement takes nothing away from the regular German troops who had many determined and hard fighting formations as well.It\'s just that with the ss you already know it\'s going to be well equipped and ready to fight you tooth and nail.That\'s where the hype comes from.

Now,you just read my statement above,and if I was talking to another American I wouldn\'t need to tell him that I don\'t agree with the 3rd Reich\'s politics,he would already know this because I only talked about their military capabilities and appearance.In Germany,you have to walk a thin line and make sure whoever your talking to,that you don\'t support the 3rd Reich\'s belief\'s.

This is one of the main problems we have in Germany with wargaming in general.Here ,if you wargame you have to defend yourself and explain that you like history and that you are not a \"war-monger\", and it\'s a game that challenges your mind and encourges reading and education etc.In America,all I need to say is I like wargames.Most do not assume the worst,hell,we grew up playing with toy soldiers.

When I say America,most of this is true for England as well.

To them the titles \"Gestapo Announcement\" and \"Fascist Fashion\" is not to be taken at face value and is used only for a theme.A bad one at that.I don\'t understand why they used that.It sounds something like a teenager would use if you get my point.Why not \"Messages from the Fatherland\" and \"Grey Steel\" and not something so tacky and tasteless(or insulting) as the former.Had to be someone under 30 years old who had that \"bright\"idea.

Maybe you can persuade them to come up with edited German versions.Send some suggestions for different titles.As for the symbols,that might be harder as it\'s more they need to change more.

I wish you good luck.I\'m interested in FOW and don\'t wish to see it banned.

I\'m sorry, I can\'t help in why it costs more for us then it does for other\'s.

I hope I was of some help in explaining a point of view.

Talliostro

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« Antwort #11 am: 19. November 2008 - 08:26:09 »

Es gibt eine erste Reaktion seitens JP, die uns alle sehr überrascht und enttäuscht hat. Battlefront wiegelt ab, dass die Situation nicht kritisch wäre in Deutschland und keiner Repressalien oder fürs Spielen und Besitzen von Battlefront Produkten befürchten müssen. Die Realität sieht aber eben anders aus, es gab bereits Geldbußen für Ladenbesitzer, die Fow Produkte verkaufen und es gab bereits Ermahnungen und Strafandrohungen an Spieler, die gewsse Produkte öffentlich benutzt haben. Daher \"lügt\" sich Battelfront da irgendwie selbst in die Tasche. Der Rechtsbeistand, den die haben, sollte besser nochmal prüfen, da die praktische Umsetzung von §86 ander ist, als die juristische Auslegung. Kein Wort zur Gestapo Problematik oder den Preisunterschieden.

JP hat also erstmal PR Mist reingeschrieben, der selbst bei Usern ausserhalb Deutschlands auf Unverständnis getroffen ist. Zumal Nergal auch so freundlich war, die englische Version des §86a ins Forum zu stellen, in dem klar geregelt wird, dass Modelle und Spiele keine Ausnahme bilden, wie JP rumargumentiert hat.

Ich gehe davon aus, dass das letzte Statement von Battlefront ist und bin erstmal zutiefst enttäuscht, da sich die Firma normalerweise um ihre Spieler in allen Belangen kümmert und auch bei Problemen versucht, Lösungen zu finden, die alle zufrieden stellen. Anscheinend gilt dies aber nicht für solche Probleme, die bedeuten könnten, dass man dem englischeprachigen Raum ihre \"Spielzeuge\" wegnehmen könnte.

Naja, wir machen weiter Druck, da das so einfach nicht weitergehen kann.
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Administrator www.flamesofwar.de

Strand

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« Antwort #12 am: 19. November 2008 - 09:12:59 »

Kann man diese Antwort irgendwo einsehen, ohne sich registrieren zu mĂĽssen (wie bei fow.com)?
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Diomedes

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« Antwort #13 am: 19. November 2008 - 09:36:11 »

Die Antwort ĂĽberascht mich nicht, sie ist identisch damit was Battlefront bisher immer zu diesem Thema gesagt hat.

Hier ist die Originalantwort von Battlefront. Bitte laĂźt uns nicht in eine lange Diskussion abrutschen ob sie damit recht haben oder nicht.
Zitat
After having prepared a long and detailed reply to this issue to show we have always been aware of the situation and will continue to manage it as we have for the last five years i realised that this is a business issue for BF and not an issue about the hobby. BF is a gaming company making a product based on the history of combat. We are not political in any way and have never made any product directed towards this end.

The law in Germany is based on preventing the rise of new politcal parties who use symbols from the past. It is not a law to censor history books, games or models. Germany is one of the largest markets in the world for all types of historical literature and gaming and the community has never had to defend itself as the seperation of histoircal product and the use of facist imagery for political ends is really very different indeed. This is what the law asks German judges to decide on and for the most part common sense always prevails. We take legal advice on an ongoing basis and the German version of the rulebook conforms in every way to any rules that exist. No player in Germany is ever going to have their models or books taken away, no police raids on gaming clubs will ever take place, the German FOW community is perfectly safe and doing absolutely nothing wrong. The law is about politics not censorship.

Should the current law change or any issue arise then BF will deal with it as a part of its ongoing business as it is BF as a company that is responsible and not the end user. At no point will we be compromising our products as we are well known for our integrity, accuracy and presentation and none of those attributes make us a politically motivated business, just a compnay making an exciting game set in WWII. At the end of the day we are from New Zealand, probbaly the most sensitive and well meaning country on the planet and Peter and i have only ever had one goal, to make great product, and we see no need to change that in any way at present. We will continue to remain aware our responibilities and how they must be fulfilled in Germany and every other country we sell to whilst maintaining our business and the developement of our gaming community.
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« Antwort #14 am: 19. November 2008 - 10:17:39 »

Zitat von: \'Mehrunes\',index.php?page=Thread&postID=15493#post15493
Die Preise kann man in jedem Onlineshop nachsehen wobei ich nicht sehe dass FoW soviel teurer ist als Peter Pig zum Beispiel.
Darum geht\'s nicht. Sondern darum, dass ich bei einem UK-Onlinehändler für einen Battlefront Blister umgerechnet knapp 7,30 € zahle statt 9,50 € hier.
Die (un*)verbindliche Preisempfehlung von BF bezüglich Euro- und Pfund-Preisen ist einfach völlig daneben.

*= wir wissen, denke ich, alle, dass das \"unverbindlich\" bedeutet: wehe du gibst mehr als 10% Rabatt, dann beliefern wir Dich nicht mehr
Gespeichert