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Autor Thema: Offener Brief an Battlefront  (Gelesen 10816 mal)

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Axebreaker

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« Antwort #30 am: 19. November 2008 - 19:36:01 »

How old are these laws and I wonder if they were written with wargames in mind.I think not,and probely when it was mentioned,it was just outlawed out of hand without much thought to it(The model aircraft for example).It\'s very frustrating that PC has gone to such lengths.It\'s one thing to sponsor the 3rd Reich\'s ideals and quite another to represent it in wargaming.
We have similar problems in America with regards to the Rebel flag,but as of yet the PC machine has not elavated the problem anywhere near as great as here.

Axebreaker

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« Antwort #31 am: 19. November 2008 - 19:37:26 »

Ghib
How do you think those laws came into place?

Anyways,before my point is lost on side issues.I personally agree with the law on all points except wargaming and of course education.
« Letzte Ă„nderung: 01. Januar 1970 - 01:00:00 von 1227120912 »
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Antipater

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« Antwort #32 am: 19. November 2008 - 19:56:25 »

Personally, I don\'t want to question the law in this case. It may be difficult to understand if you haven\'t been brought up by post \'68 parents, if you haven\'t been in a German school - it\'s even difficult to understand/accept for many people who HAVE this background. But, not to drift into a debate on basic principles, I only want to cite Grenadier Christian\'s wise words in which he put it on the Lead Adventure Forum:

Zitat
The reasoning behind this, as stated before by me, is not to allow Nazis \"loopholes\" of any kind - we have the \"Equal Treatment Principle\", so they might use it for leverage to get the right to display it \"if the modellers are allowed, why ain´t we?\". (...) It is all a case of preventing the Neo-Nazis using this symbology for their own propaganda uses and not to trivialize the Nazi crimes and atrocities. My personal stance is, better safe than sorry. Have ONE definitive ruling on the actual icons/symbols, and don´t allow for exceptions.

Absolutely agreed.
« Letzte Ă„nderung: 01. Januar 1970 - 01:00:00 von 1227121328 »
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Diomedes

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« Antwort #33 am: 19. November 2008 - 20:02:22 »

Zitat von: \'drpuppenfleisch\',index.php?page=Thread&postID=15543#post15543
Ich weiss nicht, wie gut so der Feedback-Draht von einem deutschen Einzelhändler zu einem neuseeländischen Spielzeughersteller ist. Ich habe mir das immer so vorgestellt, dass da die Kommunikation meistens kaum klappt, schon allein weil Battlefront eine ziemlich kleine Firma ist (auch wenn sie unter den TT-Firmen eine der dicksten ist). Du hast da sicher bessere Einblicke. Glaubst Du wirklich, dass so ein Feedback schon lange bis in die Chefetagen von Battlefront gekommen ist?
Ich glaube dieses Feedback ist recht gut, immerhin sind es die Händler, von denen sie das Geld bekommen. Die Statements von BF zu diesem Brief sind sicher ziemlich identisch mit dem, was einige Händler schon von BF zu hören bekommen haben. Fakt ist, daß FOW den Staatsorganen bekannt ist, Fakt ist auch, daß unzählige Händler es erfolgreich und öffentlich verkaufen.

Die Frage zu den Gesetzen ist immer, wie sie angewandt werden. Gibt es den vollstreckte Urteile gegen Spieleläden, die FOW verkaufen, hat da schonmal jemand Strafe gezahlt und was sind da eigentlich die Konsequenzen? Zahlt man Strafe und dann ist gut oder darf man FOW dann nicht mehr verkaufen oder wie läuft das? Fakten dazu wären doch mal interessant, alles andere ist doch nur Spekulation.
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drpuppenfleisch

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« Antwort #34 am: 19. November 2008 - 20:23:32 »

@ Diomedes & Ghib: Ist mir auch schon aufgefallen, dass man zu den FoW-Problemen immer nur aus Sekundärquellen hört. Würde mich ja schon interessieren, ob da ein Betroffener direkt was erzählen würde.
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Axebreaker

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« Antwort #35 am: 19. November 2008 - 20:44:34 »

@Antipator

I see his point and fine.I just think people know there is a huge gulf between a wargamer and a neo-nazi.One is for a only for game and the other is propaganda.I would think the law would not have a tough time keeping the two seperate.In the end it doesn\'t matter,the law is the law and it\'s not going to change any aspect or make any exceptions.I hope BF comes to terms with this and chooses to make a more toned down German version and not learn the hard way and get shut out of a large market.And,of course lose a fun game for us.

Angrist

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« Antwort #36 am: 19. November 2008 - 21:41:39 »

yeah but i think the thing is,
if swastikas would be legal for toys, cause thats what miniatures are, (we play with them)
it would be nearly impossible (in my understanding of laws) to keep the rest of the law,

because, think about,
if swastikas are legal on toys, why should they be illegal on clothes and anything else, as long as  not used in political things(the people wearing them would just have to say that it´s nothing political but some mystic old sign)
and then we would have problems in germany

so because of this, the law is reasonable

just my 2 cents
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Axebreaker

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« Antwort #37 am: 19. November 2008 - 22:09:59 »

I think I can answer that in two words.Common sense. ;)

Angrist

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« Antwort #38 am: 19. November 2008 - 22:33:31 »

Well
one sentence considering common sense

everybody who knows a bit about german laws,  quickly realises
Law =/= common sense

maybe america has more stupid laws than germany, but in contrast to the usa, the stupid laws in germany are in use
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Registriert euch bei http://www.spielerzentrale.de und sorgt dafür, das jeder Suchende einen historischen TTler in seiner Nähe findet.

AbrĂĽstung mit Frieden zu verwechseln, ist ein schwerer Fehler.
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Axebreaker

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« Antwort #39 am: 19. November 2008 - 22:37:42 »

:thumbdown:

Christof

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« Antwort #40 am: 19. November 2008 - 22:39:33 »

Zitat von: \'Axebreaker\',index.php?page=Thread&postID=15631#post15631
I think I can answer that in two words.Common sense. ;)

Law is done by the letter not by the spirit of the book in germany most of the time. Common sense just goes so far, as soon as toys are considered fair game a lot of people might catch up on the idea and will have a lot of toys sticking to their clothes etc. or this is what people seem to be afraid of.
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Axebreaker

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« Antwort #41 am: 19. November 2008 - 22:50:29 »

I was refering to discerning adults and childrens products.If children gain access to adult themed products it is the fault of the parents for not supervising what their cildren have access to.In my opinion FOW is not childrens game,nor is it presented that way.I also believe their is difference between model miniatures and classic \"toys\".Certain products should be sold at restricted age limits and controlled.

P.S: I didn\'t sell any of my painted miniatures.If I sell any of these it will be my \"quick\"paint jobs.The stuff I put in the Gallery,the only way I\'ll give it up is when they pry it from my cold dead hands.  :evilgrin:
« Letzte Ă„nderung: 01. Januar 1970 - 01:00:00 von 1227131754 »
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Wellington

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« Antwort #42 am: 19. November 2008 - 23:18:06 »

@puppenfleisch
Ich glaube kein Händler will sich öffentlich damit exponieren, dass er wegen FOW Ärger mit der Polizei hatte. Das soltle man respektieren!

@Axebreaker
No offence meant, but I don\'t have any intention to discuss this laws, they exist and they are excepted by the majority be the german population. As far as I know parts of them where released by the \"Allierter Kontrollrat\" after the war.
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Axebreaker

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« Antwort #43 am: 19. November 2008 - 23:30:30 »

Hello Ghib

None Taken. :) A bit futher down I said as much.The law is the law and that\'s it.I just hope BF wakes up to it before it\'s to late. ;)

For my part,when I paint my Germans I\'ll make sure to only have Iron Crosses on my mini\'s. ;)
« Letzte Ă„nderung: 01. Januar 1970 - 01:00:00 von 1227134190 »
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Talliostro

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« Antwort #44 am: 20. November 2008 - 07:43:55 »

Der Thread wurde mit einem Abschlussstatement von John-Paul geschlossen. Ich poste das hier mal, weil ich noch nicht weiss, was ich damit anfangen soll und wie weiter zu verfahren ist. Im Endeffekt sagt Battlefront, dass das Risiko und die Verantwortung bei den Spielern und Händlern liegt, wenn sie ihre Produkte kaufen. Sie wälzen es also ab.

Weiterhin lässt sich rauslesen, dass sie schon gerichtliche Termine hatten und mindestens einen anscheinend verloren haben, da muss man aber etwas zwischen den Zeilen lesen. Ich überlege mir jetzt erstmal, wie eine geeignete Antwort ausschaut, da ich ja ein persönliches Risiko fahre als Spieler...

Zitat
think this debate shows that the views on what is at stake here are varied. Let me just clarify a few things.

1. The law is judeged on a case by case basis. No case history exists in Germany, since WWII for obvious reasons, which means that today a judge could say \"i agree your book is a historical product\" and tomorrow another judge in a nother town says \"i disagree\". Every time somebody complains the case is heard and each time a new decision is made.

2. We spent over a year working with the legal IP specialist firm of Mueller, Fottner & Steinecke based in Munich to see if we could get a ruling to declare our books as \"historical product\" but were told the law only works as in point 1 so that unlike in the US or UK where we could get a senior legal officer to declare our products okay we just had to deal with each case as they arose. This is pretty much why it is rare to have complaints and most companies just deal with them as they arise.

3. The cost to research this problem and discover how to deal with this issue, which came about due to the first complaint lodged against one of our books in five years of selling, was that fighting to win on a case by case basis is unpredictable and when the fine is only 250 Euro\'s per complaint the business decision was not that complicated. Spend thousands of Euro\'s fighting each case as it arises, which when you win does not get reimbursed, spend thousands of dollars changing our products or pay a 250 Euro fine each time somebody complains. This is a cost and resource reality and unless compalints come in think and fast, and the last five years does not support this theory, what other choice would anybody else have made.

This is not us ignoring the issue in Germany at all but just us choosing our best strategy for our business based on what we can do today. I love the fact the community thinks we have grown to a size like GW that we can have dedicated language studio\'s. Maybe a few years down the road if the market grows enough we will have decidated versions of every book and when that day comes i will be the first person to say make our German version comply to avoid any issues but until that day comes our studio is working on the best product they can make based on the gloabl market we sell to. We dont glorify any units outside of thier combat prowess, which for our game is pretty much the point of doing a list about that unit, and we have absolutely no politcal view on any part of WWII at all. We are wargamers all and our pleasure with FOW is the act of painting, collecting and building tabletop forces to play against our firiends. This is why Pete and I are in business, nothing more sinister than that.

My reluctance to reply to the issue of pricing in Germnay was deliberate as nothing i can say will fix the global ecomony, the currency variations around the world or that fact that this year it has gone against the Euro and this time last year it was the US having the same issue. As a business we have chosen to set local currency r.r.p and live with the fluctuations of the market internally but give gamers in each country continiuty. A tank costs what it costs in each market and each shop and gamer knows what it is. Each country has varying taxes so no r.r.p is a clean comparison, Europes has taxes ranging from 16% to 25% off the retail, the US adds states tax when you buy it and depending on your state is can be from 0% to 10% and every global business has to choose how to handle this. Our choice was consitency and to cope with global changes at home rather than having local pricing changing every time the currency against the NZ$ moved, which given its link to the US$ would have meant that the last few years would have been much more profitable should we have done this and simply recalculated the price we sell our product for each month, like with petrol for example. We chose the other method ofnot passing on the changes to help keep markets stable so that your local LGS is still selling the same tank for the same price no matter what things are going on around th world. Some market somehwere iin the wrold s paying the most at any given time and it changes every week, reacting to this is just not something we every wanted to do for all concerned. The key is that your stores and your gaming friends all know your local price and as long as that stays constant the market will stay stable.

We try to run our business as best we can at any given time whilst focusing on being able to stay in business to keep doing what we enjoy and service our stores and our community in a way that feels right to us as both business men and gamers. Explaining every choice we make is a hard thing to do, something that at times i am always willing to try, and not something i would like our forums to get filled with as at the end of the day there will always be some of you who find any choice i make wrong or odd. I have been in the toy soldier industry my whole adult life, having joined GW straight out of university i am in my 17th year right now, and i surround myself with other managers who have similar time spent wokring in the industry. We know one thing for sure, today, next week, next month or next year we will still get some things wrong but as long as we get more things right that wrong we are still in business, learning and growing from our previous choices. FOW has evolved over the past five years as has our business and despite not being able to please everybody we are trying our best. I hope sharing our choices helps frame things for most of you and given we are a grown up community this is how i would like it to stay as long as everybody occasionaly reminds themselevs of what i have said, we try our best, we make mistakes, we move ahead and we want to be doing this more than anything else. Our passion is why we are here the same way your passion is whay you play FOW. Our shared passion is what binds us.

I am going to lock both these threads now to let everybody cool down and digest what has been said so please do not start a new one until next week as open debate is great but things have got very personal and letting this topic cool down for a while seems the best way to get back down to earth.

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