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[xothian]

Ich bin auf der Suche nach Informationen bzgl. der Osmanischen Armee, deren \"OoB\"s und besonders Taktiken im 18ten Jahrhundert.
Speziell in Bezug auf den Russisch-Österreichischer Türkenkrieg (1736–1739) .. der 3te russische oder 7te habsburgerische tuerkenkrieg oder der wieviel Xte aber so genau wollt ich meine fragen nicht aufgestellt wissen ...

Was fuer Literatur und Quellen (ausser den osprey buechern!) wuerden sich hier anbieten ? Gibt es eventuell sogar wargaming regeln fuer das 18th cent mit welchen man \"vernueftig\" osmanische armeen spielen kann?

ich kenne die \"klassische\" osmanische armee mit ihrem artillerie/janitscharen zentrum und deren alti bölük fluegeln sowie den saphis, delis und azaps drum rum etc ...
ich weiss auch dass sich die osmanen sehr konservativ verhalten haben ueber einen langen zeitraum, jedoch solche personen wie der Franzose Claude Alexandre de Bonneval welcher als Humbaraci Ahmet Pasha zB die artillerie aufwertete muss doch das bewusstsein der tuerken gegenueber der linientaktik veraendert haben ...

wie wuerde es sich gestalten wenn die oesterreicher nicht so einen fauxpas wie in der schlacht bei grocka instigierten sondern beide heere sich eine feldschlacht geliefert haetten?

fragen ueber fragen,
ueber input und diskussion dankbar

ciao chris

[vodnik]

...in den alten Shakoregeln gibt\'s ein 7YW-Supplement mit einer osmanischen Liste. Auch in den Warfare in the Age of Reason-Regeln ist eine Liste zu finden. Da steht auch vermerkt, dass sich die Armee seit der Belagerung von Wien 1683 nicht nennenswert verändert hat. Somit künntest du auch die DBR-Regeln (1500-1700) verwenden. Bis etwa 1720-30 + für die Russenkriege bis etwa 1740 würde\'s knapp passen. Danach müstest du zum erwähnten AoR oder zu Principles of War wechseln. Auch Beneath the Lily Banners kennt eine waage Möglichkeit die Türken einzubeziehen, aber du wirst viel improvisieren müssen.
Noch schwieriger wird es, nach Quellen zu suchen. Das tĂĽrkische Geschichtsbewustsein kennt diese Epoche fast nicht. Vielleicht bringt ein Besuch im Topkapimuseum in Istambul mehr...

[xothian]

vielen dank vodnik fuer die guten und schnellen hinweise bzgl spielsystem !

das mit shako hatte ich gaenzlich uebersehen und werde ich mir heute abend gleich mal anschauen, wobei in meinem hinterkopf das SYW sup als etwas \"lieblos\" abgespeichert ist
desweiteren ist mir aufgefallen dass might&reason auch ein extra sup bzgl. ottoman armies zum download anbietet
welche erkenntnisse sich daraus ableiten werd ich beizeiten zusammenfassen und posten

immer weiter auf der suche nach input

ciao chris

[bobblanchett]

Hallo Chris..

I\'ma Might and Reason player and  Greg Savvinos who wrote the turkish portion of those rules is a long friend of mine..
we talked the other day about the ack of turkish officers/info in the rules and I had a chance to discuss this and raid his bookshelf!
In english there are only a very few general books on the russo-turkish and austro-turkish wars..  

The Enemy at the Gate: Habsburgs, Ottomans, and the Battle for Europe by Andrew Wheatcroft
Ottoman Wars: An Empire Besieged by Virginia Aksan
The Early Modern Ottomans: Remapping the Empire Ed: V. Aksan

Prof. Aksan is the Duffy of Ottoman Militray history.


Almost all of the rulesets take the approach of formulating army lists based on  the level of forces fielded in actual battles, which makes sense as  the paper/peacetime establishments and organizations differed often radically in caseof Prussia to what was actually fielded. while you might find sources for  the establishment size of forces.. my advice is always look for the size of the battlefield force.

[xothian]

great !
many thanks bob!

i am just starting out to read Ottoman Wars: An Empire Besieged by Virginia Aksan and am glad to hear that its the right way to go
after reading kara mustafas \"memoires\" of the second siege of vienna and the accounts of browne at the austrian military frontier(before the WAS `37-39) and of the russian campaigns against the turks in the age of muennich 1736-39 in duffys russias military way to the west i learned a lot about army composition ... but ...  i still struggle in envisioning a  battle of turkish compostion and tactics against a european linear tactics oriented army ... with so many sieges and skirmishes at hand and mosty onesided reports (non-turkish) in a transitorial context of the ottoman world ... its all quite confusing
for europeans against non-european armies i read  jeremy blakes warefare in the 18th cent ... but it didnt help a thing concerning the turks ... so i did learn alot about turks against persians

your advise of looking for the size and composition of actual battlefield forces sound very true ... the troops actually changed so quickly,  mostly due to \"wastetage\" and sickness
and the turks seem to have a sort of \"flexibel\" not to say \"inventive\" use of numbers and accounts in their reports

concerning rules .. personally i am looking for a bataillon sized set of rules 15-28mm
most of them are either heavily tinkered to the \"true spirit\" of prussian tactics (?!) or kept very generic as they cover a wider era of horse and musket warefare .. catering to different tastes and coming in different battlefield scaleings ... but i havent found a ruleset which pits musket\"automatons\" against arquebus and sabre ...
what i know about the turks is that they where quite good shots but had a terrible rate of fire compared to (unaimed)europeans, on the other side they where also very impatient and much more willing to go into melee then stand infront of neatly arranged troops in dull (turkish opinion) uniforms, etc ...
i even thought about orienting myself a little bit more in the northern war, as the swedes with their \"Ga Pa\" at least show some of the doctrinal readiness in their troops to go forwards shot once,  drawn cold steel and charge
i definitly regard this as the best option right now

cheers!
chris

ps: my regards to mr. savvinos! splendid work of his over at sam mustafas site!

[Poliorketes]

Den \'Enemy at the Gates\' habe ich gerade gelesen, das Buch ist nicht unbedingt schlecht, aber eine Kaufempfehlung kann ich auch nicht geben. Sehr unstrukturiert in der zeitlichen Reihenfolge, Schwerpunkt sind die Wiener Belagerung 1683 und die folgenden FeldzĂĽge bis zur Eroberung Budas. Insgesamt ganz OK fĂĽr den Einstieg.

[bobblanchett]

I\'ll tell greg

a good thread listing/comparing rulesets is here
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=157701

I used to play age of reason and WRG C18 rules..  played KK but it was a little \"napoleons battles\" for me.. though I loved its campaign, deployment and siege systems from the 2ed
just got sick of fiddling with casting casulaties and expanding lines and closing them.
AoR is ok if you can stil find a copy, but I felt that the artillery in AoR was massively overpowered.

Pro gloria and fredericus rex are free I can send you copies if you dot want to join the yahoo group
Ottoman Warfare, 1500-1700 by Rhoads Murphey is also worth a look

[bobblanchett]

and WHY are all the bloody wargamers seem to be in NRW?
my fiancee wont move I\'ve asked!

arent theer any historical gamers near Mainhattan?

[Poliorketes]

You\'re wrong with that. There are some very active Gamen the Rhein/Ruhr-vincinity, but the hotspots for historical wargaming in Germany are Hamburg, Berlin and Rhein/Main.

[bobblanchett]

oh well all I was able to find in Frankfurt proper were a v small club with a dozen great blokes who have a tiny basement with two tables.. the Spieltrieb

I guess im spoiled for choice here in Melbourne.

[xothian]

well
you can certainly not compare germany to england where it seems that every wargaming club is just 20min drive from each other and their impressive wargaming \"circus\" going from town to town nearly all year round ... 9 months at least
and yes .. even australian cities may have a more vibrant historical wargaming culture then we do .... but at least its not as bad as living in the outback with tons of lead trying to teach kangaroos to throw a D6 the proper way

cheers  
chris :lokomotive:

ps: and again bob, many thanks for the advise on rulesystems! i looked thru the lists on TMP, and the others you have mentioned .. a 2nd ed KK is right in transit to me and i hope it includes their campaign system ... on the other hand, in the end i will have to settle with a tactical and not a grand tactical set of rules for my plans ... still plenty of time and many good things to read

[bobblanchett]

ah the kangaroo jokes!! I KNEW it wouldnt last! hahaha

here did you find a 2ed of KK?
its a bound foolscap paper effort witha blue cover..

KK is a grand tactical set! its not especially linear, each stand is a regiment/battalion reallly

but enjoy.. at least if you base for KK I can play might and reason as 3 4-figure stands roughly matches my current brigade basing,

if you bought it from siegeworks its the 3ed; their big new colour effort then it wont have the campaign rules.. AUD70 for it; $10 of rules and $60 of fluff if you ask me
not worth the money.. they are trying to do a Flames of war with C18 and it wont work.. price point is too high.

im due to do a cleanup.. PM me chris and when I find 2ed  KK and the campaign and siege rules I\'ll copy them and send them over.