Drucken

[Lettow-Vorbeck]

Kurze Frage an die Profis:

Welche Liste kommt für den ersten Kreuzzug in Frage? Die aus AoA oder eher eine Normannenliste aus Shieldwall.

mfg Heiko

[Goltron]

Die Crusaderliste aus AoA ist an und für sich halt einfach überzogen, von daher würde ich eher die Normanneliste empfehlen. Ich denke aber das die Crusaderliste durchaus ganz gut geeignet ist wenn man sie mit ein paar Hausregeln beschränkt:

 - Ritter nur S3 (ohne Punkteänderung)

- keine Roßharnische

- nicht zu viele Armbruster

[Robert E. Lee]

Die christliche List aus El Cid passt ziemlich gut    .

[Goltron]

Wobei man da auch mit den Roßharnischen aufpassen sollte!

[Wellington]

Grundsätzlich kommen die Western Franks (Normannen, Flandern, Capetian Franks) aus Shieldwall, die Christian Spain (Age of ElCid und Reconquista) aus ElCid, die Crusader Liste aus WAB und die Italo-Normannen (Vatiation der Western Franks) aus Beyond the Golden Gate in Frage.

Folgendes sollte berücksichtigt werden

• Keine Ordenritter
• Keine Turcopolen oder ähnliches (Jinetes oder Arab Allies aus ElCid und BTGG)
• Noch nicht zuvie Heavy Armour
• Kein Barding
• Je später im Kreuzzug desto weniger Mounted Milites
• Man könnte meiner Meinung nach durchaus die Pilgrims aus WAB1.5 auch in den anderen Listen verwenden, ist für mich kein Chery Picking
• Armbrüste können durchaus üppig eingesetzt werden, ich würde sogar mehr Armbrüstschützen als Bogenschützen nehmen. Aber kein Mixed Order wie in der Crusader Liste, das kommt erst noch später.
  

Grüße

Bernhard

-

[Axebreaker]

It really depends on your gaming group.If your not interested in balance and just want a list to play then AoA is the list and at the moment is the only official list.You may have noticed from some remarks that it\'s one of the lists that is considered very hard and well.....it is. All the armies in AoA were made as temporary lists and were not subjected to a great deal  of play testing and as a consequence some have resulted in a brutal list.
If your looking for a more balanced list then the EL Cid Christian lists are your best bet.They are right along the same time period and equipment.Only thing I\'d recommend is taking more infantry to cavalry ratio then a typical EL Cid christian list as the Spanish included a significantly greater proportion of mounted to dismounted troops in their armies in general.

[Christof]

Die Crusaderliste aus AoA ist an und für sich halt einfach überzogen, von daher würde ich eher die Normanneliste empfehlen. Ich denke aber das die Crusaderliste durchaus ganz gut geeignet ist wenn man sie mit ein paar Hausregeln beschränkt:

- Ritter nur S3 (ohne Punkteänderung)

- keine Roßharnische

- nicht zu viele Armbruster

Solange man beachtet, dass die Reiter M4 haben sehe ich keine so grossen Probleme mit den Kreuzzugrittern.
Gruss Christof

[Shapur]

ich habe zwei Listen von Chris Stone die passen könnten
[font=\'Times New Roman]CRUSADES PILGRIM ARMY[/font][/b][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][/u][/b][font=\'Times New Roman]Attracting Noble’s, Knights and Peasants alike the pilgrim crusade provided an odd assortment of travellers to the Holy land.[/font][/i][font=\'Times New Roman]This mob would usually run at the first sign of trouble often only to be rallied by the religious fever of one of the leaders.[/font][/i][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][/u][/b][font=\'Times New Roman]PILGRIM ARMY[/font][/b][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Characters: Up to 33% of the available points may be spent on Leaders and Religious Leader.[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Infantry: At least 33% of the available points must be spent on infantry.[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Cavalry: Up to 33% of the available points may be spent on Cavalry. One unit of Knights may be chosen.[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Crusading Pilgims Special Rule[/font][/b][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]• One Leader, Religious Leader, must be chosen from the character entries, and he must be upgraded to Pilgrimage Leader (+25 pts) who counts as the Army General.[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]SPECIAL RULES[/font][/b][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Pilgrim Camp[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Pilgrims moved as a mob and would often decimate food and supplies at any places visited on their travels. They formed huge camps effectively small towns wherever they stopped. To reflect this, the following rule applies to pilgrim armies:[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]1. Pilgrim armies may always place D3 patches of difficult terrain in their deployment zone. Each patch measures about 6” by 6”, and must be placed before deployment begins.[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]CHARACTERS[/font][/b][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Leaders and Religious Personalities[/font][/b][font=\'Times New Roman]Knights making their own crusade with bands of followers or religious personalities with a following of those seeking a better life or their own god they all came to the holy land.[/font][/i][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font][/b]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Leader 5 4 4 4 3 2 5 2 8 60[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Religious Leader 5 4 4 4 3 1 4 2 7 40[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: A hand weapon and light armour. May have buckler (+1 pt), shield (+2 pts), either javelins (+2 pts) or bow (+3 pts), and either thrusting or throwing spear (+2 pts). May ride a horse (+8 pts). [/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Army Standard Bearer Option: One Leader may be upgraded to Army Standard Bearer (+15 pts). [/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rule: Mounted Characters have Feigned Flight. [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]INFANTRY[/font][/b]
 
[font=\'Times New Roman]Pilgrim Infantry and Followers[/font][/b][font=\'Times New Roman]From all over Europe east and west they came to find a better place. Some skilled in arms others came with a fanatical frenzy of their God. [/font][/i][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][/i][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font][/b]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Pilgrim Infantry5 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 4 4[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Followers 5 2 2 3 3 1 2 1 4 3[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: Mixed weapons (count as a hand weapon and javelins) and shield. Every other unit of Pilgrim Infantry may have throwing spear (+1 pt) or bow (+2 pts) instead of javelins. Two units of Pilgrim Infantry may have either halberds (+2 pts), or double-handed weapons (+3 pts) - this goes to reflect the Pilgrim Infantry’s use of any weapon to hand and differing backgrounds of the troops.[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Skirmisher Option: Any Pilgrim Infantry unit may be designated as Skirmishers (+1 pt). Pilgrim Infantry Skirmishers have Feigned Flight.[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rules: Light Infantry. Warband. Pilgrim Infantry and Followers have Stealth. [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]CAVALRY[/font][/b][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Cavalry[/font][/b][font=\'Times New Roman]Mounted knights and few followers who owned horses who for their own reasons joined the Pilgrimage were often poorer equipped than there military counterparts. While there were some extraordinary well equipped and experienced knights and Men at arms these were often hindered and slowed by the rest of the “Cavalry”[/font][/i][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font][/b]
[font=\'Times New Roman]0-1 Knights 8 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 17[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Cavalry 8 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 6 15[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: A hand weapon, javelins and buckler. May have shield instead of buckler (+1 pt), and throwing spear (+1 pt). Knights may have light armour (+2 pts).[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rules: Skirmishers. Feigned Flight. If Knights are chosen, at least one unit of Cavalry must be taken as well.[/font]

[Shapur]

oder
[font=\'Times New Roman]EARLY CRUSADERS[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]ARMY SELECTION[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Characters: Up to 25% of the available points.[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Infantry: Up to 50% of the available points.[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Cavalry: At least 33%.[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Allies & Mercenaries: Up to 25% of the available points may be spent on either Allied & Mercenary troops, and on Ayyubid Regular and Volunteer Cavalry and City Militia Infantry only may be chosen[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Early Crusades Special Rules[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]• One unit of Frankish infantry may be upgraded to Elite (+1 pt) and may use Shieldwall may also have light armour (+2pts) no longer count as Levies[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]• One unit of Light Cavalry may be given Light Armour (+2 pts)[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]CHARACTERS[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]0-1 General [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]The general represents one of those characters who came to the Holy Land and carved out the Kingdom of Jerusalem and Outremer against incredible odds. They held onto these possessions for 200 years. [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]General 4 6 4 4 4 3 6 4 9 200[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: Hand weapon. throwing spear, light armour, shield, upgrade to heavy armour (+1 pt), exchange throwing spear for thrusting spear free, javelins(+2 pts), lance (+6 pts), warhorse(+4pts)[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rules: Army General.[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]0-1 Army Standard Bearer[/font][font=\'Times New Roman]The general\'s personal banner bore his coat of arms and marked his position on the battlefield. The progress marked the tide of battle as it ebbed and flowed. The army battle standard provided a focal point and an inspiration.[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]ASB 4 5 4 4 4 2 6 3 8 115[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: Hand weapon. throwing spear, light armour, upgrade to heavy armour (+1 pt), exchange throwing spear for thrusting spear free, javelins(+2 pts), lance (+6pts), warhorse(+4pts) (Note No shield)[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rules: Army Standard. [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Commanders[/font][font=\'Times New Roman]The Crusades were full of Barons, princes, dispossessed nobles and counts and of course religious personalities.[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Count 4 5 4 4 3 2 6 3 8 110[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Bishop 4 5 4 4 4 2 6 3 9 140[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: Hand weapon, light armour, shield, upgrade to heavy armour (+1 pt), warhorse(+4pts) Count is armed with throwing spear, may exchange throwing spear for thrusting spear free, javelins(+2 pts), lance (+6 pts), [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rules: Bishop: Any unit Bishop is with may re roll any failed panic tests. If a General has not been chosen you may upgrade one Count to Army General (+25 pts)[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]CAVALRY[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Frankish Knights[/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Western knights were extremely well-armoured, but they could become very exposed to missile fire, and the intense heat could take its toll as well. [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Mounted Knights 8 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8 30[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Dismounted knights 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8 14[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: Hand weapon, light armour and shield. throwing spear or thrusting spear, Mounted Knights have warhorses. May have heavy armour (+1 pt) and exchange thrusting spear for lance (+4 pts).[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rule: Mounted Knights have Ferocious Charge, and may count their rank bonus up to +1.[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Light cavalry[/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Useful in the role of scouting and harassing enemy troops were the knights could not go.[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Light Cav 8 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 17[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: Hand weapon javelins, shield may exchange javelins for throwing or thrusting spear (+2 pts). [/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rules: Light Cavalry. [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]INFANTRY[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Frankish Infantry[/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Spear armed infantry were the backbone of the Crusader armies. Their numbers comprised a mix of armed volunteers and grizzled veterans of the European wars. [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Frankish infantry 4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 6 5[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: Hand weapon, thrusting spear and shield. May have javelins (+1 pt) [/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rules: Levies; every other unit of Frankish infantry unit may exchange thrusting spear and shield for bow (free). Any unit of Frankish infantry may be designated Light Infantry (free)[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Skirmishers[/font][font=\'Times New Roman]These are Europeans who had some expertise in shooting, often huntsmen. They provided a handy skirmishing element for rooting enemies out of difficult terrain. Although not as powerful as the crossbow they could fire on the move and add the weight of fire to the crossbows when enemy horsemen approached. Muslims archers usually outranged them[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Volunteers 4 2 3 3 3 1 2 1 5 3[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: Hand weapon, javelins & buckler. May exchange javelins for a sling (free) or bow (+1 pt). [/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rule: Levies; Skirmishers. [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]ALLIES & MERCENARIES[/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Mercenary Knight’s[/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Knights out to make their fortune or reputation often joined crusading armies. [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Mercenary Knights 8 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8 27[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Dismounted Knights 4 4 3 3 3 1 4 1 8 13[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: A hand weapon, light armour and shield. throwing spear or thrusting spear, Mounted Knights have warhorses. May have heavy armour (+1 pt) javelins (+1 pt)[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rule: Mounted Mercenary Knights may count their rank bonus up to +1. Mercenaries Rule Any unit wishing to move charge or shoot for the first time must pass a roll of 2-6 on a D6 a roll of one is a fail and another attempt can be made next turn. When a roll is passed there is no need for further rolls with that unit. The unit may defend itself if attacked including shooting against chargers.[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Mercenary Infantry[/font][font=\'Times New Roman]Most Muslim cavalry and many infantry were bow armed allowing them to shoot down the crusaders long before close combat occurred. European Crossbowmen went some way to countering this. This powerful weapon was a hefty device and awkward to load on the move. What it lacked in mobility it more than made up for in sheer penetrating power. The iron bolt could punch through the heaviest Muslim armour with ease. Crossbowmen were much feared and prized mercenaries. [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] [/font][font=\'Times New Roman] M WS BS S T W I A Ld Pts[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Mercenary Infantry 4 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 6 5[/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman] [/font]
[font=\'Times New Roman]Equipment: Hand weapon, shield(+1 pt) light armour (+2 pts) javelins (+1 pt) throwing or thrusting spear (+1 pt) or double handed weapon (swords/axes) (+2 pt) or bow (+2 pts) or crossbow (+5 pt).[/font]

[font=\'Times New Roman]Special Rules: Any unit of mercenary infantry may be designated Light Infantry (free) Mercenaries Rule Any unit wishing to move charge or shoot for the first time must pass a roll of 2-6 on a D6 a roll of one is a fail and another attempt can be made next turn. When a roll is passed there is no need for further rolls with that unit. The unit may defend itself if attacked including shooting against chargers.[/font]

 

Beide Listen sind von einem Mini-Suplement, das mit Unterstützung von Rob Broom für ein Crusades Wochenende (Juni 2009) mit Musketeer Miniartures, Gripping Beast und Warhammer Historical veranstaltet wurde. Hoffe das hilft.

[Leondegrande]

Wo hast du die Listen denn her, haben die nicht nur Teilnehmer des Events in Evesham bekommen?!

Wär da auch dran interessiert.

[Shapur]

ich war Teilnehmer und habe das komplette \"Mini-Suplement\" ist leider als Word-Datei etwas über 1 MB groß. Es versucht die alle Listen bis Mameluken abzubilden. Schicke mir ne PN mit deiner E-Mail-Adresse und ich schicke dir die Datei.

[Leondegrande]

Ist unterwegs, Danke

[Wellington]

@Antipater
Gab es Turcopolen auch schon vor dem Fall von Jerusalem? Ich dachte während des eigentlichen Kreuzugs, also bis zur Eroberung Jerusalems gab es sie noch nicht, sondern erst danach ?(

Ich hatte meinen Vorschlag auf den eigentlichen Kreuzug beschränkt. In den Jahren danach hätte ich auch Turcopolen und muslimische Verbündete vorgeschlagen.

[Antipater]

Man beachte die  :zitat: . Ich meinte nicht Turkopolen im Sinne regulär angeheuerter Söldner oder Dienstpflichtiger, sondern allgemein orientalisch-muslimische Elemente in der Liste. Spätestens ab Kleinasien waren solche \"Unterstützungseinheiten\" beim Ersten Kreuzzug dabei.

[Wellington]

ok überzeugt!